#I saw a parallel between Charlie and Emily

[scarletg-art]

I was inspired in ep. 6 from Hazbin Hotel to draw this ✨

[gothamcitycentral]

Hazbin establishes very strong parallels between Charlie and Vaggie’s relationship and Lucifer and Lilith’s.

Charlie being as to Lucifer, the fantastical dreamer discouraged and rejected by the world around them.

Vaggie being as to Lilith, someone who failed their assigned role and were driven out of ‘paradise’ (Heaven/Eden) by someone they should have been able to trust (Lute/Adam).

In their most vulnerable moments Lucifer and Charlie find them, love blossoming between each pair because they defied the norm, Lucifer and Lilith being rebellious in a world of order and Charlie and Vaggie being kind in a world of cruelty.

Though at the same time, Charlie is to Lilith while Vaggie is to Lucifer.

“This kingdom was something she really cared about. Something I care about.”

Charlie acknowledges she is the last thread of the hope her mother gave to Hell all those thousands of years ago. The responsibility to her home Charlie puts on her shoulders is born from the love Lilith had for it. She is directly following in her mother’s footsteps, truly believing her people deserve better and that they’re worth fighting for.

Then there is their partners, the fallen angels who don’t share their love’s connection to Hell. Lucifer saw sinners as horrible people who wasted the gift he went to Hell for giving them. Vaggie always kept everyone not named Charlie a spear’s distance away, treating them as people she tolerated but never trusted for a moment. Despite what Heaven had done, had done to them, they were still thinking like angels.

(Though, these mentalities would change throughout the first season, Lucifer choosing to support Charlie no matter what and Vaggie accepting the hotel crew as a part of the in-group which she wishes to protect)

Lucifer’s distaste for his people, not fighting alongside Lilith’s rebellion and instead agreeing to the exterminations, seems to be why they eventually split, despite the love they held for each other. In extreme contrast, Vaggie always supporting Charlie is what keeps them together despite bumps in their relationship. Vaggie always chose to believe in and support Charlie and that means the world and more to Charlie, who spent so much of her life unsupported.

The show also juxtaposes Lucifer’s parental love for Charlie with Vaggie’s romantic love for her, most prominently with Vaggie starting the reprise of More Than Anything to express her love as Lucifer did originally.

(They’re also just. Charlie and Lilith being these tall powerful demon women with Vaggie and Lucifer being their short and tiny fallen angel loves)

What becomes interesting is during the finale when Lucifer (very strongly, very tastefully) implies he ate out Adam’s first wife before fucking his second.

This seems to based on sexual interpretations of original sin. However, in Hazbin we are very much lead to believe the Fruit of Knowledge is a literal apple. Given that Lilith is said to have also offered the apple to Eve, I doubt the implication is that Luci had any sort of one night stand with Eve. Rather, I think Lilith, Eve, and him were once, or attempted to be, in a romantic relationship.

(Considering Eve was made to be Adam’s lesser and Lucifer and Lilith shared the gift of free will with her specifically, I do wonder if Eve had fallen in love with the two, but was unable to leave Adam. The Fruit of Knowledge being given to her so she would be able to be free and join their relationship, but ultimately resulted in their separation as Lucifer and Lilith were casted into Hell)

Which certainly has implications about the future of Charlie and Vaggie’s relationship.

I think the show has actually set very compelling parallels between Eve and Emily.

Much as Lucifer shared forbidden knowledge with Eve, it’s Charlie’s actions that revealed the hidden truth of Heaven’s exterminations. There’s the specific ‘free will��� which Eve was gifted, which fits with Charlie’s influence giving Emily the ‘free will’ to defy Sera and act against Heaven.

I’ve also talked before about the possibility Emily was brought into existence to fill Lucifer’s place in Heaven. Considering the protective relationship Sera has with Emily, along with her looks of genuine horror at her acting against Heaven, it brings to mind the idea Sera has been fearful that Emily would fall just as Lucifer did for Emily’s entire existence, and as such raised her to be more likely to never stray from Heaven as Lucifer did. Which could add to why Sera hid Heaven’s genocide from her despite Emily being a high ranking seraphim; she couldn’t risk giving Emily a reason to rebel.

Which would be a very striking analogue between the two. Both living replacements for the fallen, born into someone else’s shadow to take their place, intended to be the more docile and proper version of Lilith and Lucifer, less likely to stray from the roles they were created to fill. Though, of course, we know Eve fell to temptation and maybe-probably-definitely left or tried to leave Adam, and that Emily is walking the edge.

(Emily having ties to both Lucifer and Eve seems relevant with how Charlie and Vaggie each have parallels to Lucifer and Lilith. Perhaps in her fall, we’ll see Emily ‘thrive in Hell’ just as Lilith did, and similarities between Charlie and Vaggie to Eve will pop up the more we learn about her?)

What’s also interesting is that Eve ‘falling into temptation’ (choosing Lucifer and Lilith over her preordained role) is what separated her from them. However, if Emily were to choose supporting Charlie’s dream over her place in Heaven, then her falling would be what brought her to Charlie and Vaggie. Thereby their situation acts as a foil to the previous generation’s.

And Emily supporting Charlie is very relevant. In More Than Anything we get the exchange of:

“I’ll support your dream whatever lies in store.”

“And who could ask for more?”

Because Charlie can’t think of anything more she could ask. Charlie’s idea of love and being loved is so heavily based on support and being supported. It’s a part of the conflict in Hell’s Greatest Dad, that Lucifer is being genuine and Alastor manipulative, but Alastor is the one actually providing Charlie with what she asks of him, which Lucifer never has. Charlie shows her love for Hell by believing in them, that they can improve, they deserve safety, and they have worth. It’s why Vaggie’s love is so important to Charlie, because for a long time, she was the only one believing in her.

And what does Emily do?

“I don’t know-”

“Yeah, let’s give him a chance!”

She supports Charlie! She believes and trusts her and argues on her behalf. She’s the only angel in Heaven to have faith in Charlie’s dream. Having Emily in the position of a fallen angel, falling right into Charlie’s arms, Charlie caring for her and nursing her back to health, with her being someone who very deeply believes in her, would be the same conditions that made Charlie fall in love with Vaggie three years ago.

Then for Vaggie, Emily also has a lot of the textbook traits that she loves Charlie for. The overexcited-ness, the care she has for others, even the way she doesn’t pull rank. And what she hasn’t expressed, that being seeing value in Vaggie where she herself does not, it feels natural that Emily would express that in the way Charlie does upon learning Vaggie’s history. We’ve seen her sense of justice and her horror at Heaven’s actions, so her deeply sympathizing with Vaggie would be entirely expected, and would be a very easy way for Vaggie to catch feelings for Emily.

However, there is this:

Which suggests the direction of a jealous Vaggie. I think that works, at least initially, with Vaggie feeling insecure in her relationship with Charlie after Emily falling and being cared for by Charlie in the way she was all that time ago. Those feelings heavily changing however, at the realization that Emily is crushing on her just as much as she is Charlie and how deeply relatable to her Emily’s circumstances and trauma would be.

Then on Emily’s side, not only would she have very much been thinking and focusing on Charlie prior to her fall, once she does, she lands in a very emotionally volatile situation where Charlie and Vaggie are supporting her so much and caring for her so deeply. It makes sense that this would translate to her developing feelings for the both of them.

(Now, this is a bit less definitive, but with Emily’s design, the long hair and dress that covers every inch of her short of her fingers, and Heaven being a stand in for the imperialist church, I do read the coming-of-age story the show has set up for her to be one of a conservative christian raised girl striking out of the doctrine she grew up in and finding community in the people her home had demonized, or at least an allegory for such. So having her develop romantic feelings for two ‘vile and blasphemous’ women in a very non-monogamous way would be very thematically relevant I think)

I would say this all works great as an analogue to Lucifer, Lilith, and Eve. Eve being in the unfortunate situation of Adam’s wife but finding comfort in Lucifer and Lilith and falling for the both of them as Emily would as a fallen angel being comforted by Charlie and Vaggie. Lucifer seeing Lilith reflected in Eve and caring for and helping her as he did before being parallel to Charlie helping Emily as she did Vaggie. Lilith initially feeling negativity towards the woman made to replace her bond so closely with her new love, only to realize Eve is falling for her just as much as she is for Lucifer and empathizing with Eve’s situation so deeply, just like Vaggie.

Then, there’s Adam and Lute. I already mentioned that they play parallel with forcing Lilith and Vaggie out of their respective paradises. Their dynamics are built on Adam and Lute punishing, and their domination over, Lilith and Vaggie, because they need to know their place: beneath them. (There’s also the interpretation of that Lute had or has romantic feelings for Vaggie, which is certainly relevant) The show is being very clear with Lute being Adam’s successor I feel, with her taking on his position as leader of the exorcists following his death.

Then, her line: “Your brat is threatening the very foundation of Heaven.” Personally, that makes me think of a sediment Adam would feel towards Lucifer. That’s he is the source of every problem, that he stole his wives (ignoring that Lilith left him before even meeting Luci), and that he destroyed paradise, Eden. Now that Vaggie and Lute’s conflict has seemingly come to a close, I think the show will be shifting to a Lute vs Charlie conflict, much as Adam shifted from Lilith to his hatred for Lucifer.

Now, if the show wants to push a Adam-Eve dynamic with Lute and Emily, what I could imagine is Lute protecting onto Emily in a very one sided way, where she thinks Charlie has ‘corrupted’ the seraphim (threatening heaven’s foundation) and she must personally ‘save’ her, which would very much align with how Adam would feel towards Lucifer’s influence on Eve.

Now, we can tell that Lucifer, Lilith, and Eve’s relationship Did Not pan out particularly well. So I think much like how Charlie and Vaggie have succeeded where Lilith and Lucifer failed, Charlie, Vaggie, and Emily is going to be the successful foil to their attempted relationship. Then for Lute, I think it becomes a question of: does she accept the olive branch Adam did not, does she eventually understand that she is doing wrong, does she accept mercy, or does she continue down Adam’s path, digging her own grave as he did; except that unlike Adam, there won’t be anyone to cry for her?

And y’know, the angel and 3 immortal humans versus the demon/half immortal human and 3 angels serves as a nice counter.

[anthurak]

If Charlie/Vaggie/Emily is a palleral to Lucifer/Lilith/Eve, would their be an Adam to go along with it? I think Lute may be the obvious choice.

Yeah, I think Lute being the Unholy Trinity's parallel to Adam definitely tracks.

Also, if we assume that Lute had one of those homophobic, hyper-repressed hate-crushes on Vaggie, this raises the fun possibility of Lute, post-season 1, trying to cozy up to Emily ostensibly for some kind of scheme. But deep down is clearly trying to find a 'replacement' for Vaggie, just like Eve was a 'replacement' for Lilith to Adam. Only for Emily to leave Lute for Charlie and Vaggie just like Eve left Adam for Lucifer and Lilith.

Furthermore, this could end up leading to a future antagonist one-sided rivalry between Charlie and Lute much like we saw with Lucifer and Adam. Which in turn could lead to us getting a HILARIOUS call-back:

Charlie (about to deliver a massive asskicking): "Now, I am going to FUCK YOU!"

Lute: stares in utter bafflement and horror

Charlie, with a VERY cheeky grin: "...up."

[ody3baby]

do you think we’ll get a juke kiss or are we all setting ourselves up for heartache

HOPE BABE ILYSFM THANK YOU

okay so, this is an excellent question that I’ve casually seen a lot of ppl talk about but hadn’t fully paid attention too much of what they said. I think I should start with what I have seen ppl talk about, which is them being worried about Madison (Julie) being a minor and Charlie (Luke) being like 22 and not wanting her to have to be forced to kiss someone older if she doesn’t want to, especially since they’ve noted how she and Charlie would act all gross out by the thought (but I would also like to point out that they both are Team Juke and her dad is like Juke’s #1 fan.) However, from what I’ve see from Maddie and what she’s talked about, she always has her dad on set and her sister comes there a lot, and it seems like Kenny and the crew treat her really well and give her a great work environment. So it seems that she wouldn’t do anything that she would be uncomfortable with. After all, going back to what I said, she’s mentioned several times that she’s Team Juke and wants them to happen as well. Also, just like today or yesterday she posted (i think on her ig) about a gum (i think spearmint but don’t quote me on this) giving her great gum to help her in juke kissing scenes and she was gonna give it to charlie so that take as you will lol. Also, I think they all knew what they were getting into when they were casted (since they’re the main ship i can see them having a chemistry read with each other during auditions) since the Juke ship is pretty obviously a big ship in s1 (I mean they literally wrote Perfect Harmony and wanted Juke to have an epic Troy and Gabriella- eques dance and Charlie was the one who suggestion that Luke’s guitar sing to Julie so...). My conclusion? They’re both professional actors and I think they’d both be professional and okay with it, but if they’re not then I can see the show respect their wishes and do something for juke that is still natural and explores their epic romantic relationship, maybe even another epic song/dance.

Okay, now that that long explanation is out of the way, we’re gonna go with the idea that they’re both cool with it and go from there. 

Okay, tbh when I first saw the show and the final scene where they finally get to touch and they’re looking all loving into each other’s eyes with their hands placed all lovingly on each other’s faces, I totally thought that they were gonna kiss! (same goes with the last Willex scene). It makes sense that they didn’t tho since a lot was going on and Alex and Reggie were right there. But, what seems like their newfound abilities where Julie can now touch them (which means more hugs yay!!), they can actually kiss now. Yay! Which begs the question, what does this mean for their relationship since that’s now an option?

As a sidenote, tbh if it wasn’t for Luke dying bc of Caleb’s spell, i think that porch scene would’ve ended with them making their ‘interesting little relationship’ official since the episode started with Julie turning down Nick (her big crush that she had in the beginning of the season who she preseries seemed to be on crushing on forever and is an actual lifer like her) bc she didn’t think that it was fair to him since she had feelings for Luke even though she thought that nothing could happen bc of it. And then you see you her go to Luke’s parent’s house to give them Unsaid Emily bc she just wants to help him feel better bc she knows how badly that he’s hurting. And then the way he tries to hold her hand, forgetting for a moment that they can’t touch, but then says, “This is an interesting little relationship you and I have.” And they’re both so adorable looking at each other when the other isn’t looking. Also, when he said ‘there’s something I have to tell you” the way Julie was sorta standing up and down on her tippy toes and sorta looked like she was anticipating something, I feel like she was expecting Luke to officially say something about him liking her. I really think that without him dying and having to focus on trying to crossover, they might’ve started some sort of relationship even though it would’ve been different. (again she could’ve started one with Nick but refused bc she liked Luke). And that was when they couldn’t even touch. Although of course you can have a relationship without touching, from what we’ve seen between Julie and Luke, it looks like they craved each other’s touch i.e. all of her looks in Perfect Harmony and back to that porch scene where they forgot that they couldn’t touch and wanted to hold each other’s hands and the way that they looked at each other’s lips at the end of Edge of Great. So I think it’s save to say that they did wish that they could touch. 

Which leads me back to the end, where they can touch and don’t have to worry about him crossing over any time soon (since it looks like the boys will wanna stick around for a while and not look for their unfinished business anytime soon since they’d want to continue on their music career). So, with The Phantoms not going anywhere anytime soon, and all that had happened with Juke prior to that, I think it wouldn’t take long for them to try to start something, unless something stood between them. Which seems like caleb!nick could in fact put a wedge between them (especially since Nick was there to give her flowers and ‘fight for her’ as Caleb said). But even without that that wedge, I’m still kinda unsure of if Juke would officially admit their feelings to each other right after that night, or still kinda have it sorta linger in the air. 

Either way, whether they do get together pretty quickly or take their time bc of outside and internal obstacles (i.e. Nick and their own inner worries of not being sure if a lifer/ghost relationship would work) I think the show will take their time with a kiss. There’s a lot of Troyella parallels for Juke, and I can see them pull a troyella where we get almost kisses and but always get interrupted (i.e. HSM 2) up until A Big Epic Moment™ toward the end. I mean in a way, we already got something similar to that when they wanted to hold hands back in the porch scene but their hands went through bc he’s...you know...a ghost. So since we already had a scene in that similar vain, I can totally see that happening. Especially since this ship is already so agonizing like that. 

But back to your original point, I think (if the actors are okay with it ofc) we will get a kiss. Whether it’s s2 or another, I completely believe that we’re gonna get a kiss at some point. So I don’t think our hearst will break on that front (although that is valid concern given our track record with ships). However, there is also the big question of whether or not they end up together, since he is after all still a ghost (unless him and the boys become alive again at like the end which i really want to happen). But that’s a whole question for another post, and this is already super long. 

In conclusion, if the actors are okay with it, then I really think that we’re gonna get a Juke kiss (and hopefully Willex too), but I also think that they might torture us with it before it happens. 

Anyways, sorry this is so freaking long and probably doesn’t make any sense. But thank you so much Hope!! ILSYFM BABE and I absolutely LOVE talking Juke with you!! 

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[savageolivegarden]

The Raven Cycle/The Dreamers Trilogy/Twilight Saga mashup

Book 1: The Twilight Dreamer

Bella is a dreamer

Renee is too, that's why she's always moving around.

Phil is a dream.

Renee thought Bella would be normal so she didn't bother teaching Bella anything about their powers.

Bella dreams little treasures like turquoise rings, cacti and handfuls of Arizona soil.

Her bookshelves are lined with dreamt first editions.

Forks is on a strong ley line.

This is a mostly human au so no vampires.

Edward and Bella still meet and it’s a hate to like type deal and they start dating. 

Bella gets really close to Edward and his family.

The last act is Edward sneaking in and spending the night in Bellas room.

She falls asleep in his arms and dreams. 

Edward runs, horrified by what he’s seen

Book 2: A New Moons Dream

Edward ghosts the fuck outta Bella.

It’s awkward between Bella and Edwards family so she stops talking to them. 

Bella stops dreaming. 

She starts hating her powers and what makes her different and if only she could be normal maybe Edward would want her. 

When she does dream, she has nightmares full of horrible realities that bite and scratch and hate her. 

Charlie sees the ooze of black from her eyes, ears and mouth and wants to beg her to dream but her knows how she’s hurting and doesn’t want to force more nightmares on her. 

Charlie helps clean up after her nightmares, he scrubs the blood from the floor and wraps her injuries. 

One night she brings back a monstrous version of Edward that attacks her and Charlie has to kill it to save her. 

Charlie calls Renee and she doesn’t answer.

Bella doesn’t have a Cabeswater or Lindenmere but she still loves the forests in Forks and being around them soothes the ache in her heart. 

She dreams a tree that sings lullabies.

One day she falls asleep in the school library and dreams.

When she wakes up a girl, Angela, is smiling down at her hand.

Bella brought back a tiny black beetle thats abdomen lights up like a glow-worm.

Bella panics but Angela just keeps smiling and says “it’s ok no one saw, I promise. Can I hold it?” 

Angela and Bella become friends and Bella feels lighter. 

She dreams more and soon she hardly ever has to deal with nighwash.

She’s more hopeful of the future and maybe she’s learning to hate herself less. 

Book 3: A Dream Eclipsed 

Bella and Angela fall in love baby!! 

Bella dreams of Angelas eyes and lips, the soft blush on her cheeks, she wakes with delicate flowers curled in her palms. 

She wants to give them to Angela but neither girl has really admitted their affections yet so she presses them in between her dreamt first editions.

There’s a bit of conflict where Edward is a weenie baby and tries to “warn” Angela away from Bella but Rosalie and Alice stomp that out. 

Rose, Alice, Emmett and Jasper start hanging out with Bella again.

While out in the woods Bella sees a girl and a wolf, not a wolf but a dream creature.

The girl is Leah and she and Bella form an almost friendship while figuring out their powers together. (There would be a heck ton of parallels between Bella and Leah in this series)

Bella still can’t reach Renee. 

The tail end of the book would be Bella and Angela getting together. 

While sitting under her lullaby tree with Angela, Bella realizes that she’s brave enough to admit she loves Angela. 

Bella kisses Angela and Angela kisses her back. 

Book Four: A Dreamt Dawn is Breaking (idk gimme a better title)

Established relationship between Bella and Angela. 

Things are going great until Renee finally calls.

She sounds desperate and scared and says Bella is in danger. 

People are hunting dreamers.

Leah and Bella have to find out why dreamers are being hunted without being caught. 

They have to run. 

Idk I’m thinking a mix between Call Down the Hawk “Z Hunters” and Colin Greenmantle “Gimme that Greywarren” that gets resolved neatly before the book ends. 

NEW TRILOGY BABY

Midnight Dreamer Trilogy

Leahs story.

The stories she was told about dreaming from her father and grandmother. 

Deals with the end of her relationship with Sam and the loss she feels by being abandoned by not just Sam but Emily too. (Just like Bella with Edward and the Cullens) 

Deals with the death of her father and how she still had so much more to learn about her powers. (Just like Bella and Renee, except Renee is just kinda an ass)

Her dreaming a wolf

Her friendship with Bella

Her friendship with Angela

Her relationship with her always a ball of sunshine brother Seth (wow Matthew Lynch much, is he a dream idk wait for book 3)

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Fear 4x10: Analysis

Good morning! Who watched Fear last night? I have to say, I'm really enjoying this season, still. I thought last night’s episode was excellent! And, as a bonus, it had tons of relevant symbolism in it.

***Spoilers abound for Fear 4x10. Don’t read until you’ve watched! You’ve been warned!***

Let's first talk about the broad stuff. Alicia ends up at the cabin or house. It's very much like a lot of the places we've seen before. There are a lot of things that reminded me of the moonshine shack, and also the cabin Carol, Tyreese and the girls went to in 4x14.

Remember last week when I said it seemed like the group would be split up for the B part of the season and we’d have individual episodes about each group? Did I call that or what? This episode was about Alicia and Charlie, and the next episode will (based on the trailer for next week) be about Morgan.

If you want to see this as a repeat of Beth and Daryl at the moonshine shack (and you probably will as I go along) then Alicia would be Daryl and Charlie would be Beth. My reasoning on that is just that Alicia is the more angry, surly one, and Charlie is the more sad, weepy one. Between the two, Alicia is also the stronger and more capable. In a minute I'll show some dialogue but also supports this.

So, when she gets there, Alicia finds four walkers in the house. Two men and two women. This was meant to be the family that lived there. Father, mother, son, daughter. The son and daughter were at least teenagers, if not adult age. So, the family all died in the house together.

In terms of Alicia, that would've reminded her of her family a lot. Before the apocalypse happened, it was Madison, Travis, Alicia, and Nick. I think that's why she threw the pictures out. She couldn't stand the reminders of a family she once had and no longer does. But everything about this is symbolism we've seen before. There is a very obvious example of the Bethyl side-by-side walker theme.

In this case, there were two men and two women. I'm not sure what to make of that exactly, but it's interesting. I don't think we've ever seen an example of two men and two women side-by-side like this in regular TWD. But I'm wondering if the other couple (besides Bethyl) could be John Dorey and June. So maybe they're doing to show there are now two couples, one on each show, that are following the same symbolism? Just an idea.

The photos themselves reminded me of Sasha in 5B. Remember, she used the photographs as target practice? Even though what happened was a little different, in both cases these women (Sasha and Alicia) were in pain and couldn't stand to see pictures of happy families around them. Even what was in the pictures was mildly suspicious to me. A lot of them were taken at the beach, which plays into the beach theme of this episode. But I noticed one was the little boy playing baseball (Negan?) And there is also one at an amusement park, kinda like one Rick and Michonne went to in S7. And there were other ones that had water in them.

I will also say that there were several things in this that made me think Alicia was being somewhat paralleled with Rick as well. There was a part where she looked at herself in the mirror, which reminded me of Rick getting to Alexandria in 5B. We also saw her silhouette against the light several times, which they did with Rick S8.

Later in the episode, Alicia goes out to look at the four walkers she dragged out and Charlie has wrapped them in shrouds. I noticed that three of them were dark and one was white. I'm not sure exactly how to interpret that, but it's the black/white theme that we see around Beth and Daryl a lot (X). I wonder if it's something like three deaths and one resurrection? Or could be connected to the St. Nicholas/pickle story which is three resurrections. I'm not sure. But I thought it was super-interesting.

At one point, there's something dead in the fireplace. It had been stuck in the chimney and fell when Alicia was cleaning it out. I couldn’t tell what it was at first, but I’m fairly sure it was a dead bird. That’s kinda huge! 1) It’s literally a bird surrounded by ashes. So, Phoenix theme. 2) Even more than that, remember that in 4x11, Carl saw a dead bird in the pudding house. 

I’ve ALWAYS thought that was a foreshadow of Beth. Dead bird = Beth before she’s resurrected. If that dead bird had just been about Carl’s death, it wouldn’t still be a thing now. (This shot from S4 also includes a bird cage. Remember the bird cage in Beth’s cell in 4x01.)

Alicia apologizes to it and says, "I'm trying." The trying theme was especially big in TWD S5. I’m not sure what to make of the fact that she’s apologizing to it, but I’m sure it’s symbolic in some way.

On TTD, they said the family was supposed to have asphyxiated because the fireplace was clocked. So the dead bird actually killed the family. Also highly symbolic. Think of it this way: Beth’s death “killed” Daryl emotionally. In other instances of the side-by-side theme, Karen’s death “killed” Tyreese emotionally. So it’s very interesting that this bird literally killed the family in this case

In TTD, they also talked about  the bird Madison talked about in 4x08. That’s what it was about for Alicia. But it all goes back to the bird symbolism from S4. And remember, who is the song bird?

This is probably the thing that made my jaw dropped the most. When she's trying to start a fire, she burns something that says "Rottweiler" on it. 

Remember that Emily was rumored to be filming scenes at that white cabin with a Rottweiler. Wouldn’t it be crazy if those missing scenes from season five showed up in fear instead of in TWD? That would be insane! But this does seem to be foreshadowing something with a Rottweiler on Fear and having to do with Alicia.

While we’re on the subject, there were at least two other dog symbols that I saw in the house. (Sirius/Dog Star theme). When Alicia first enters the house, there's this plaque that has a dog and a paw on it. 

It was also featured on TTD. The fat that it says “Rotty” made me think of the fact that at Grady, they called walkers “Rotters.” Perhaps another rottweiller clue we totally missed?

Then here in the background, I think this might actually be a picture of two Rottweilers. It's unclear, so I can't be sure, but that's what it looks like to me. See why I’m excited?

This house also had a lot of canned food in it. That's similar to both the funeral home from Alone and also from Carol and Tyreese's cabin in the Grove. It also reminds me a lot of the cabin we saw on the Red Machete miniseries. 

Just cans of food out on the counter. 

Alicia picks a green one and a blue one. It doesn't show us the labels on either one of them, so obviously what’s in the cans isn’t terribly important for us to know. But the color scheme is there. I also noticed that in this part, there's a water bottle on the left that says Green Valley Springs.

When Alicia finds Charlie in the house, she tries to leave because she doesn't want to end up hurting Charlie. 

The sequence with the car was really strange. Alicia had the keys and tried to open the car door, but for some reason, the door stuck. I watched it several times and I'm still unclear on why the door wouldn't open. There is what looks like some sort of strap on the inside of the door, and I thought maybe it was some sort of bungee cord holding the door shut. Looking more closely, I honestly think that might just be decoration on the door. The door randomly wouldn't open and as a result, Alicia ended up with a mild head injury.

It just smacks of Beth to me. I'm not sure if we should be interpreting it literally—like something about Beth being left behind in the car had to do with the door not opening—or if it's more just the "please associate cars with head injuries" kind of thing. I don't know, but that seemed really suspicious to me.

Of course the cabin has the Grady lighting, where the inside is dark but light is coming in from the outside. We also see pictures of plants in the laws, which I think we seen before in a few different places in TWD. (Btw, on TTD, Chris Hardwick said we should be looking at the lighting, the pictures and things in the background, the shots, etc. So we’re totally justified in reading into this stuff. ;D)

Onto the dialogue. Charlie wants to save the pictures. Alicia is against it. I thought this was a really interesting way to do this theme. Alicia keeps telling her that the people are gone. (“Just gone” theme) and saving the pictures won’t bring them back. To which Charlie replies, "You don't know that!" 

Exactly what Beth said. So once again, Charlie equals Beth and Alicia equals Daryl. The Alicia later says, "No one's gone until they're gone. And "When they're gone, they're just gone." Another Daryl line.

Remember that the “just gone” line specifically means that someone is not dead, but just missing. Daryl said it about Beth in 4x16. Also, 4x08 of Fear where Madison “died” is called “No One’s Gone.” So we’re seeing this a lot and to me it always means that someone who is presumed dead is not truly dead and will return.

The candlelight dinner Alicia and Charlie share reminded me of both Beth and Daryl’s in Alone and Carol and Tyreese in 4x14. We’ve seen other similar candlelight dinners as well, but none quite as potent as those two.

The basement was flooded, which reminded me a lot of the food bank in 5x02. At one point, Alicia has flashbacks to Nick and Madison's deaths. 

That reminds me a lot of Sasha in 5x13, when she flashed back to Bob, Tyreese, and Beth's deaths. But it occurred to me that we actually have kind of an opposite thing going on here from Sasha. I found this episode to be very powerful. Charlie and Alicia, much like Beth and Daryl, came out of it in a much healthier emotional place. They found forgiveness and healing. 

That was not the case for Sasha. At least not when she had her flashbacks. She was a great deal of pain and having the flashbacks did not heal her. So, kind of an antiparallel there, but still similar to S5.

The walker in the tree. This is pretty huge too. There's a walker impaled on a tree outside the upper window of the house, which Charlie keeps looking at. We can only assume it got there because the wind picked it up and flew through the air and it ended up being impaled on the branches of the tree. I wondered while watching it, if perhaps we could relate that to Beth in some way. It occurred to me that this was a type of crucifixion. The walker was up on the tree, just hanging there. It's not uncommon for Christ's cross to be referred to simply as a tree because it was made of wood. But I also wondered if I was reaching. Looking at something that wasn't there.

Then, near the end of the episode, that walker fell out of the tree and onto the basement door. Apparently, that made it possible for Alicia to push the door open and for them to get out. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how that was supposed to work. The door was chained from the outside, and I'm not sure how the walker falling on it actually freed them. It could be that it's weight, and possibly the weight of a tree branch simply broke the chain. Still a little unlikely if you ask me, bordering on unrealistic. It doesn't actually bother me, though. I think the whole point is the symbolism. 

Because Christ is seen as the Christian savior, I think it's important that this walker was hanging on a tree, and then ended up being the thing that saved them. There are some major Christian themes in this episode. And does this point it Beth? I don't know. It might. We have the Rottweiler references and now a reference to someone who was crucified. (Remember that Beth wore the cross bracelet at Grady to show that it was her crucifixion and Father Gabriel talked about how one of their own was “sacrificed”) will save them. I hope it refers to Beth. It may be more of a Christian theme than anything else, but Beth has also been set up as the Christ figure in TWD. So either way, it makes me pretty excited.

It's also worth noting that when Alicia shot the crucifixion walker, she shot it exactly where Beth was shot.

A look! A bunch of burials. Alicia buried a bunch of walkers that nobody actually knew or cared about. And who that we did know and care about didn't get the burial?

This brings me to another theme that we saw both in 4x13 and 4x14. Charlie said she wanted to leave the photos for anyone who might come later. That theme really came together for me at the end. After burying the walkers, Alicia said she done it for the people who might come later. I mean, this cabin could BE the cabin that Carol and Tyreese went to. It's not, but in that case someone else came before them and buried the people they found there. So when Ty and Carol got there, there were already graves on the property. Alicia’s set up was like a prequel to that. She stayed in the house, and ended up bearing the people she found there

This theme was also in 4x13 because Beth wanted to leave the thank you note in case anyone came back. It's a theme about doing something, leaving a message for anyone who might come after them. 

I think it's a really interesting and powerful theme. Oh, and there's the “friends and family” sign behind the graves. Almost as if to show that friends and family always get burials.(Sorry this pic is a little blurry. My internet connection was being a chump at the time.)

Alicia passes the weapon her signature weapon to Charlie. Kind of reminded me of Daryl giving Beth his crossbow.

Alicia and Charlie are now looking for the others. Just as Beth and Daryl did in 4B.

I’m not going to say too much about the beach theme. It does suggest something about the coast, and possibly Oceanside, but I'll leave it at that.

Alicia drives back to Strand’s mansion but everybody is gone. I did notice one thing that I didn't notice last week. I don't know if we never got this angle or if I just missed it, but there is a black and white horse artwork over the mantle.

The school bus is now on its side. We know from last episode that nobody was actually there when that happened. John and Strand are out looking for someone and Luciana went chasing after Charlie. Meanwhile June and Al are in Al’s truck. But the overturned truck reminded me a lot of 5x05 when the short bus crashes. Even in 4x10, Inmates, the bus wasn't on its side, but Maggie, Sasha, and Bob did find the bus wrecked on the side of the road.

And back to the “just gone” theory. At the end, Alicia tells Charlie that the others are “gone.” Once again, this is an example where we (the audience) KNOW the other characters are still alive. Alicia and Charlie don’t know it, but we do. And they’re being described as “gone.”

I think that's all I have for now. This is structurally REALLY feeling like a mirror of TWD 4b, and that’s where Bethyl first happened, so it gives me tons of hope. I really loved this episode and Fear is really given me the TD tingles lately. How did everyone else like the episode?

[dustydreamsanddirtyscars]

Hello. :) I’ve rewatched season 11 because it was honestly one of my favorites with season 9. And I’ve noticed you said you enjoyed that season as well. Do you have any opinions on how similar Emily Swallow looks to Jensen? Do you think they picked her for that reason on purpose? Cause, it works so well in showing their connection throughout the season. Also What are your thoughts on the different parallels the two have? Such as her and demon dean moving around the bunker in the same way.

Hey dear!

S9 to S11 - so basically Carver’s run - were my personal favourite seasons as well. So I am absolutely with you here. Though I sadly thought S11 was losing its way a bit when Carver left, but overall I loved it and think it was a strong season. Plus - and I suppose this is still an unpopular opinion - I did really like Amara and the entire MoC arc connecting her with Dean.

But to your questions. Yes, I have indeed spoken about the resemblance between Emily Swallow ans Jensen at the time (see here) and I could definitely imagine it was a conscious decision, because like you say it definitely adds to the connection that existed between Dean and Amara. As I have talked about in a lot of older metas from S11 - and this kinds of fits to your second question - to me Amara in some proximity could be seen and understood as a part of Dean and when thinking a bit more outside the box, even something like his dark female half that was externalized and embodied by Amara (the whole Charlie and Dark!Charlie split served as a major parallel here and of course foreshadowed the reunion between Chuck and Amara, tbh though to me Dean’s arc here was never truly wrapped up, because to me unlike Charlie Dean has not reintegrated his “darkness” back into himself and I still think something of that kind we would have gotten to see had Carver stayed, but yeah… Anyway….

To me that aspect was built up in S9 through Abaddon already. Her and Amara share a few similarities. The way Abaddon moved through the MoL headquarter back in the 50s

and how Demon!Dean walked through the bunker in S10 were very similar (see here).

And in a way Amara was the natural progression. And of course this shot directly aligns with Amara one season later (the way she looks at the picture of Dean and Mary later in that episode btw also aligns with back to human!Dean later in 10x03 “Soul Survivor” holds the same pictures in hand)

I talked about Abaddon and Amara and how they compare and parallel more in depth here.

In the end you could say when Dean was a demon, Amara was “pulling his strings” since that was the time the mark had full hold over him and that was in extension Amara. Though I personally rather saw the Darkness more of a form of liberation for Dean since as a demon did “let go” and just did what he wanted. Of course there are lot more shades of grey making the issue much more complex, but I have always read Amara/the Darkness as a form of liberation (see here and here).

So yeah to me there exist a lot of things that connect Dean with Amara, one other thing being for example how Amara was denied to exist as a person/being in his own right but was locked away, similarly Dean’s own wishes and dreams were ignored and pushed into nothingness by his father’s quest for revenge. He had no room to grow into who he would have become if he never had to be what his father needed him to be. To me that is exactly like Amara being denied existence by her brother.

Gosh, I am going to stop here lol, otherwise I may write half a novel. But man it’s amazing and sad how these seasons can still spark such excitement in me and spark so many thoughts and meta and how I barely feel any need/desire to meta for the current season. God bless S9 to S11! :)